Michael

Thank you for joining us on the Cyber ethics podcast. I'm Dr. Michael Buder. Today I'm joined by Cam Wells and we'll be discussing issues of accessibility in the digital sphere.

Cam Wells is a stroke survivor and he holds 4 diplomas from St. Clair College. After getting his journalism degree, he Came to realize that there's a great imbalance in the way disability stories are typically portrayed in the media.

They seem to be portrayed as either bitter or inspirational without a presentation of the middle ground. After graduating, Cam set himself to the task of trying to change all that.

He has been the host of the radio show Handi-Link for 15 years now. He has interviewed a wide array of people from cast members of shows like Breaking Bad and Corner Gas to everyday people with amazing stories to share.

Cam has been honored for his work both locally and nationally, including a nomination for Canada's Disability Hall of Fame. Welcome to the show, Cam and thanks for being here.

Cam

Pleasure. Always happy to get the word out about anything. Accessibility related.

Michael

Absolutely, and a quick personal note, happy belated birthday. Yesterday was your birthday, right?

Cam

Thank you very much. And, A fun note about that. I first act as a human being was wrecking a retirement party, which, it's always something I reflect fondly on because well.

It's one of those things. People arrive when they feel like it. When schedule.

Michael

That's right, that's right, life happens. Great. So I appreciate you coming here to talk to us about accessibility issues.

You, this is something that you've spent a great time focusing and shedding light on through through your show.

So I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about some of the digital accessibility issues that you've encountered both personally and through the conversations with your guests on your radio show.

Cam

Well, most obvious thing that comes to mind is, my own experience when I was doing, Diploma is 2 through 4 at Saint Clair.

And I myself being a stroke survivor I have limited dexterity in one hand and I only type with one finger.

Michael

Okay.

Cam

Distinctly remember being told that it was physically impossible for me to pass some of the speed drills that were required of me, but somehow I muddled through in the low end ones. I required accommodations for sort of the higher end ones.

But therein lay the problem. The program, the software they were using wasn't necessarily designed to work with talk and type interface and therefore was sort of like saying just because you don't type this way.

You can't physically do it. However, They were understanding enough and I was able to use an alternative software that had a better interface and ultimately complete my education.

Some of the things that really stand out for me -is what we think of as a convenience sometimes can be a tremendous advantage for someone with a disability.

Think about it in terms of a voice-activated Alexa. Someone who's got full range of motion, it's a convenience saying hey Alexa turn on the lights. But for someone to physically manipulate a light switch that is a tremendous thing.

It's being able to have that sense of independence that sense of freedom for perhaps the very first time.

Michael

Right, yeah, that's an excellent point. So we often think of, technology as sort of supplementing or providing alternate resources for people.

But it's it's important to note that it opens up options, to be like, grants independence and autonomy a lot of the time some of these supports.

Cam

Oh, that's the thing now. People look at something like the pandemic as all negatives. However, I did a series of interviews at the time.

Talking about how it was perhaps the first time some people with this bill who were homebound were actually able to work using digital technologies.

Michael

Great.

Cam

And how employer probably won't go out of their way to accommodate everyone who could potentially be in the workforce when it's affecting them and the whole world's closed down, suddenly we're making allowances.

Michael

Right, that's very interesting- So yeah, go ahead.

Cam

There was. There's actually, Sorry. There's actually, an employment expert, a friend of mine, Sean Wiltshire.

Gave me a great couple of interviews on the subject. His work actually takes him all over the world in terms of getting people with disabilities employment but seeing people enter the workforce for the first time because we realised these digital options were available to us.

Just kind of a changing experience. That's 1 thing the pandemic did do. As long as we maintain.

Michael

Right. That's really interesting. That's not actually something I'd considered before. So the shift to being able to or being forced to continue to continue operations as a business online actually opened up some opportunities for people who may not have had them before.

Cam

That was, it's a great boon. I mean, You want to look at employment trends in particular as being, oh yes, we're inclusive, we're providing.

Michael

Right.

Cam

What we're legally required to. Bare minimum. However, once you realize the advantages of say providing a home computer for someone with a disability who might just bring innovation or new ideas to your business.

You come to realize it's 300 bucks now but for the 3 million you might make later. Definitely worth it.

Michael

Right. Yeah, that's right. They always say, investing in people is one of the best investments you can make in workforce development. So that's that's that's a nice silver lining I suppose out of the pandemic.

I imagine there were also some, some downsides for people facing accessibility issues during the pandemic.

Cam

Particularly in the educations fair, they had to very quickly transition to online learning. Fact is they didn't necessarily take into account those who might have a different learning style.

It's not like you could just dial up the EA or the learning support staff easily. And facing something like a vision impairment.

When you're patching together an online system, you're not going to look at things like high contrast options or whether or not it's got alternative text so someone could properly interpret what the question is.

And the trouble in that space is Alternative text might read out. What the word is, but it can't distinguish between you’re and your if you catch my drift.

Michael

Right, I haven't thought about that. So words that sound the same when they're a converted from text to speech.

Cam

You have to take that in context. I mean, some people can absolutely do it. I mean, if you look at the rest of the sentence, but it all depends on how your mind works and what's your familiarity is with the language.

Michael

Of course.

Cam

For someone coming in as in the ESL for example. Say you have a disability, you're just learning the language. That could be a whole host of problems right there.

Michael

Right, that's a very good point.

So, speaking of higher education, in light of the pandemic, I think maybe a little bit for that even.

It was starting to be more of a focus, this sort of digital accessibility and general accessibility issues, this seems to be more of a focus for universities, at least there.

They’re making announcements to that effect. What's your assessment of how that's going?

Cam

Well, I always think, first off, that it's easier to build it with accessibility in mind, reinventing the wheel later is not good thing.

If your website is built, look a certain way, and then later on government mandate says, oh, you need a high contrast option.

Michael

Right.

Cam

You turn that on, it can completely alter the look of how somebody's looking at it. So is easier just to take into consideration the fact that someday you're going to have a student with disability.

For them, they don't always know what's available to them. They don't always know that they're entitled to accommodations or supports.

It was actually, my big pitfall, my first year at the college. I, and the transfer programs, to get into my second year, but my first year, I I didn't ask for help. I was coming out of high school.

I was one of those guys who assumed the world's gonna be handed to you on a silver platter.

But for a student with a disability who's had to scrape and scroll every inch of the way and it does happen.

They're not necessarily going to have the confidence, the courage to say to a professor, hey. I'm entitled to this support.

I've been to Learning Commons. I've been to the support office. What have you.

Michael

Right.

Cam

And honestly, this is what I need to succeed. The big myth is it's not about an unfair advantage.

It is not about providing someone with an easy ride through higher education. It was about leveling the playing field.

I once heard a story, from a friend of mine, Anne Karemic, great, great lady. She had actually a deaf student and there's a transcription requirement in office of main training.

Michael

Good.

Cam

They found a way to do it. It was, not only an ethical move on their part, but it was setting a precedent.

And you can do it once for one student, chances are you can find a way to do it for another.

Michael

Right. That's a good example. So last time we chatted, you said a little bit about, with this, with this sort of thinking of mind, you know, designing things from the ground up with a view to accessibility concerns.

And you mentioned a little bit of a distinction between 2 concepts in this field. Accessible design and universal design.

Could you say a little bit about that?

Cam

Absolutely. Universal design is something that's made for everybody but might have an advantage in the disability community.

Oh, see the case the Alexa I alluded to earlier. Where it's accessible design is something created in mind for people with disabilities that might have an advantage.

See the case of a wheelchair button. Say you're a mother and you're looking after 2 or 3 kids and you're also carrying groceries. You need a way to get in the door.

Michael

Okay. So, oh I see, so that's an example of accessible design that ends up having a convenience affect other people as well.

Cam

Yes, and they're actually a lot of instances of that. If you look around, I mean, If you look at even the prolification of things like smartphones, one thing they were never specifically intended to do just to be able to have a disability advantage.

They were just invented to be more convenient phones, but there are actually some that are set up so people in electric wheelchairs can use an app to drive. Things like that. They just happen to be a happy result of technologies advancement.

Michael

Right, that's nice. So to bring these points together, the idea that people should be designing from the ground up with a view to accessibility and some of the accidental benefits that come along with technological advancements. What what would you like to see in the future or what do you what do you already see coming sort of down the pipeline in the future in terms of either benefits for people with accessibility issues or things that are raising. Concerns about accessibility in the new technology.

Cam

Oh, the big concern. It's. Definitely, something I hear a lot about. There are a lot of mandates coming out.

Michael

Okay.

Cam

The Accessible Canada Act is a great example. Yeah, it's all these policies put together, but how many government agencies know what they're supposed to do with it and how much training is actually being enforced in the workforce. I mean, yeah, having policies is great, but quote a wise man. Don't break your arm, patting yourself on the back.

Michael

laughs Okay.

Cam

Well, thing is, having all this in place is fine. However, if it's not monitored periodically, if people don't ask the questions, and again self-advocate and say, I need this to be successful.

I have seen some trends towards, more physically accessible spaces. Now, one thing about that is people just think you put in a wheelchair ramp, you're fine.

That's sort of a first off. I see so many signs that aren't brailed or so many businesses or office spaces that don't have sort of a sensory.

Sensory free zone. If you catch my drift. Things like autism or even some forms of Asperger's, I believe, can produce sort of a sensory overload and as an employee with that condition, you need a space to be able to go and calm down a little.

Even right here at the radio station a couple of years ago they were talking about redesigning some of the studio spaces.

Edits choice basically put the whole thing in something roughly the size of a broom closet. Or you-was what was the broom closet and converted into studio space that could accommodate 2 or 3 electric wheelchairs which was pretty passive at the time.

Michael

Nice. Right.

Cam

And that is a step forward, but honestly. We must never rest on our laurels when it comes to improvement. That's good enough today, but tomorrow. The question is how can we make it better? A disability -

Michael

Yeah.

Cam

It's not a limitation, it's just a different way of thinking. It's adapting what exists to suit our needs.

Michael

Yeah, that's a great point, Cam. So, so 2 great points. I'd like to just sort of rehash a bit.

So one, your point about the legislation and the mandates are one thing, but we need the sort of ground up movement as well of education and training and understanding of implementation.

I think that's a really important point. And I love your second point as well that we can't rest on our laurels because not only is there obviously more work to be done, but as the technology develops and new technology arises, there are going to be new areas of concern and hopefully new areas of opportunity as well.

And, and I think it's important that we're attentive to that so that we're prepared for them as they come down the pipeline.

Cam

Also about that physical systems themselves need monitoring. I mean But people don't seem to realize if you misuse a wheelchair button and you press it 500 times, sooner or later the mechanism will need to be replaced.

Michael

Right.

Cam

In the education space especially. Teachers, professors, even fellow students should be educated on what's available to them.

Not just in terms of the technology. How to interact with somebody who's making use of it, like when I was doing some of my studies we had one computer that was designated for someone with low vision.

Michael

Okay.

Cam

We were told, don't use that computer, it is reserved for one student. We were all fine with that.

The fact is, this was what the student needed to succeed. I mean, in fact, I'm doing a presentation for an offshoot of Canterbury College.

In a couple of months on adapting the world around us. It's part of a disabilities course I designed some while back.

But, some of the things are just like little things. Doesn't have to be like a high technology.

I got a great example from a therapeutic riding facility. I might have riders who don't understand complex instructions about manipulating the reins on a horse. So they actually just color coded it. They might not understand this reign or that reign, but they would understand blue were red.

Michael

Right. That's interesting. And I mean, that strikes me as a great instructional tool for anyone, right?

Learning to ride. That would simplify things. That's an example of like you're saying, it provides an accessibility point for someone who needs it, but it's, it also makes it more convenient for everyone.

Cam

Absolutely. I mean, If you go looking for accessibility advantages in in modern technology, chances are you'll find them.

You look at speech to text. I mean, they're about a zillion apps on any given phone for that that are available.

Were they designed initially thinking, yeah, the disability community is going to love us for this? No, they were designed.

To make texting someone a little easier. And if it has a disability advantage, so be it.

Michael

Yeah.

Is there anything else that you would like to add that you think the listeners might be interested in in terms of think that some people who maybe work in education can try to be more attentive to or in terms of the training that you think could be provided for teachers at all levels?

Cam

Yeah, this is kind of a big one for me. I mean, I was once told in education.

Michael

Okay.

Cam

I'm not gonna say we're not gonna say by who, but I couldn't disclose my disability because it was quote “not a positive thing”.

That led to a lot of academic issues at the time and I think honestly just a universal understanding that disability isn't always but we can quantify what we can readily understand, on the part of both the student base and instructors I'd like to see just more mandatory training, more education about education, if you will.

Michael

Right.

Cam

Can't just be a footnote as you go through teachers college. Yeah, yeah, this is a disability. That's a disability. Because nobody is the textbook definition. I say on the air, a million times – so, medical science is all a baseline. You can't factor in the way any given conditions can affect this person or that.

There are people who are told they'll never walk again and they find a way. And people will never have kids. I know such a person and his 5 kids would kind of take opportunity.

Michael

Right, it's an important point, right, not to let a designation sort of limit the opportunities that are afforded to either buy it by someone from the outside, a teacher perhaps or for yourself from your own self understanding. I think that's such a great point, Cam.

Cam

And from fellow students. I mean, in any level of education, there should be at least that understanding that this is not an outcast or a monster.

This is someone who is here to learn alongside us. I might like to get to know them I might not, but let's not make any snap judgments because chances are if either the teacher or the students go in with those preconceived notions of this is what I think a person with the disability should be able to do.

Michael

Yeah.

Cam

You're going to create that glass ceiling for yourself and for them. Your teacher expects less of you, chances are you're going to aim to that level.

Michael

Yeah.

Cam

I wanna see more teachers and more students encouraging each other saying, why don't you try this or I think you're capable of that.

Michael

Yeah, absolutely. Fantastic message, Cam.

That's excellent. Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to come on and share these thoughts with us, Cam.

I'm sure the audience will really appreciate it as much as I do. So, thank you. Once again, for coming on the podcast and I encourage our listeners to tune in to our next episode.

Cam

Thanks. Alright, and if I may give a plug to my own show,

Michael

Absolutely, yeah, go ahead.

Cam

I I do, disability issues program Handi-link, which is available through a number of online means just Google it, HAND i dash LINK and You can play any recent episode and fun fact about that.

It's actually named for an old sci-fi series, Quantum Leap. A computer terminal called the handi link that knew all the answers about the future.

Michael

That's great. That's great a little inside, a piece of trivia there. Yeah, and I will put links to your show in notes for the podcast as well.

Cam

Thanks. Much appreciated.

Michael

Thank you. Take care.

Cam

And thank you